The Newfarm Forums

[Dave & Helene]

Hello! My name is Dave and I am currently in the USAF in NJ. I am looking to retire soon after 20 years of service and my wife and I are looking to move to Ohio. We really want to farm organic crops, beef, and chickens. It seems almost impossible to get started with shrinking farm land and the price of land itself. Is it possible to still get into farming and where do you start?

[HilltopDaisy]

Well Dave, you have a slight advantage in that you will receive a monthly retirement check. I think a lot of folks are forced to work off the farm in order to pay the bills, then what ever is left goes for animals/seed, feed, equipment and maintenance, etc.. I refuse to go deeper in debt, with the hope that things go well, so I pay cash as I need things--no debt other than my land. Which brings me to an important point. Often one does not need nearly as much land as you might think. 5-20 acres may seem like a small piece of property, but if managed intensively, you can do a lot with it. Not raise beef cows, of course, but you get my point. I look forward to reading other replies. Can't tell you about Ohio, but there are lots of old farms for sale in upstate NY.

[Dave]

Thanx for the reply! Yes I do get a monthly check and thats a bonus but it's not as much as one might think. I would prefer to put it away and save it for later in life but at least I know it's there if I need it. I have heard that some farmers are looking to "turn over" thier farms as a business deal or slowly sell it off to a person that wants to take it over. Not sure if this is happeneing but I hear it is possible. As far as NY, I actually have a friend that retires in Nov. that is moving up into NY to take over his dad's 200 acre farm.

[Dave]

Our plan has actually been this, and please tell me if I am waaaay out in left field. We would like to get some land possibly around 150 - 200 acres. I know of an old defunct greenhouse that I can possibly get his equipment from. These houses are HUGE and cover 8 acres. I can probably salvage 50% of them with taking parts off one set and putting them on the others. I was thinking it might be neat to use these year round to provide fresh veggies 365/yr. We were also thinking of getting a nice trailer for our truck and using it to market the veggies to the three major cities, Cleveland, Toledo, and Columbus, in our area. Of course this would be organic and certified after I met all the criteria. Ah such dreams......

[Mike]

Hi Dave, I would think twice about that much land, unless you are thinking livestock. But thats just my opinion. Also I would like to recomend that you reads Joel Salatins books they are great! They give you many ideas.

Mike

[Dave]

[Eric Deci]

From the Been-There-Dreamed-That category, Dave:
I bought a couple hundred acres in Upstate NY because it was cheap and where I wanted to be. I claim insanity now.
Even releasing myself of some responsibility because a large percentage of it is wooded and steep and only used for timber, my wife and I working full time with no off-farm jobs can only really manage a couple acres and keep a little control over the other 50 open acres. The infrastructure costs for a place that large are pretty high and you will find that equipment you need will not fall into your lap at low prices like it might have in the past. I am often competing with COLLECTORS for used equipment at the local auctions.
Beef? 200 acres? Words come to my mind such as veterinarians, fence, fence, more fence, water, feed, not to mention cost of buying calves... I have the "perfect" beef farm right here, but would need 100K to try it out, even after owning the place outright.
When someone tells you on these pages that a small property is worth considering, they know what they are talking about, so keep it in mind! You will see that 90% of the people who make this work started very small and grew - the other 10% were lucky! Be careful not to take on so much that you are overwhelmed and quit. You can make more money on a couple acres with greenhouses than running 100 head of beef anyway.

[Dave]

Thanx Eric,
First I would not try and fence off 200 acres that would be insane, nor would I have 100 head of beef, so thats really a non issue. I have no issue starting small but what happens when it comes time for expansion? With land prices the way they are, they will continue to climb and you may compete with collectors for equipment but try to compete with a developer for land! I have prices equipment in Ohio and it is relatively in expensive unless you try and buy the brand new JD combine! Thats why I was asking about the retiring farmer option. I have talked to our farm beureu (sp?) and apparently with the number of older farmers retiring and thier kids not wanting to farm there is not many options other than to sell the whole thing or find someone to take it over.

On the other hand with 50 acres how much do you green house? What kind of crops can you sell year round?

[Eric Deci]

Fencing 200 acres is not crazy, just expensive! This place USED to be all fenced and full of sheep and cows, but most of it has dropped out over 40 yrs of neglect. Back where I used to live that would be a small operation for cattle.
I have not heard of anyone using more than a couple acres under greenhouses, so even on a smaller section you have a lot of space for other things. An Amish guy here has one greenhouse and is pumping out tomatoes at 800-1000 lbs a week, and at todays prices you almost could stop there, although I am sure he has a lot of other stuff going on!
I wish I had your equipment situation here. There has been a resurgence of small farming and the stuff is very hard to find used, except for big 80 hp tractors that sell for 4 grand at the same auction where a nice old Ford 600 31 hp model goes for 5 thou to a life in the parade circuit. Implements are nonexistent. If it ain't broke, it ain't for sale!
You have a point about having a bank of land to tap into later if you need it, I suppose; I had the same idea when I bought my place instead of something less. Around here the land has been between 450 and 1000 an acre for the last 15 years - some places with a lot of buildings and in more turnkey condition go for 1200/per.
As for year-round sales, others have said you need value-added things like honey or jellies for that because even with greenhouses you have less interesting inventory for a few months every Winter. I don't have a retail market on the farm,yet, and all the Farm Markets here close in Winter, so I am concentrating more on developing sufficient sales during the regular season. As much work as it is, a few months of regrouping, planning and further study will be welcome!
I know that we also have a very aged farmer population. The place next to mine is out of action now because he is too old to work and his kids never took it up. Rumored to be for sale in the next year or two, like you say - I see people talk about these take-over arrangements. Never seen it though. That place might just sit as a hunting park for 40 yrs until the family's next generation gets too old and ... gee! that is how I got my farm!
Everyone is different in this last respect, I am sure, but wanted to mention that I don't think I will have made a nickel in profit off this place before late in my 2nd year at best, so plan for the possibility that you will be living off savings or other work for a good long time up front. The guy who plants the right things to support his family within 6 months is very lucky and rare (and probably learned how to do it somewhere!)
Good Luck!

[Dave]

Wow thanx Eric,
Yeah I have a perk in that being a vet I still have a pension coming in and health care for me and my family so that takes some load off. I figure a good part time job for me and the wife can get us by till we figure out what we plan to do. I own a townhouse in NJ right now and it is appreciating at an incredible rate so I hope the bubble stays inflated till I sell in two years. Of course my luck it will collapse the day before I put it on the market!

You said the farmers markets are closed during the winter, thats the market I would like to hit on. Provide that sort of service all year round. I even though of growing corn in the green house but not sure if that is possible. The thing I like about all this is that the possibilities are really endless.

On the land, I guess if I got more than I could use I can always lease it out to help pay the taxes and have it for later on when/if I go full time.

[evensongfarm]

Hi Dave,

You have been talking a lot about greenhouses and off season production. Do you have any of Eliot Coleman's books? Go and get them along with the books from Joel Salatin and study hard. Start with Salatin's "you can farm" to put you in the right frame of mind.

[Dave]

I'll go get those books, but where do they sell them?

[AndyF]

Starting small is a good way to go. I'm in my 4th year and have worked up to just 2 acres of vegetables and ~ 3 acres of fruit. I made a profit last year, but am several years away from taking more than a token amount out of the business. I need to reinvest almost all of the farm's income to continue growing the farm. I started with 7 acres and am looking for some additional ground now, but would not have wanted to start with a lot of land unless it was rented out.

I have a 26X96 hoophouse I'm using for tomatoes, peppers and eggplant this summer and will use for spring greens next year. I'm putting up a second 26X96 for fall greens and next summer's tomatoes, peppers and eggplants. The current build out plan is to go to 4 26X96 houses for production, one 20X48 greenhouse for starting seedlings and continuing to use my first 12X27 greenhouse for odds and ends. I plan to have the fourth house built either late next year or early 2007. To keep up with what I have right now requires >40 hours paid labor in addition to my own time during the summer and ~20 hours paid labor in the early spring.

You will want to balance your planting with your marketing effort. In my first year I could only sell about 1/2 acre worth of vegetables, last year about an acre and this year I could have sold more than 2 acres worth. It takes a while to get your name out and become recognized for producing a good product. Now that I am getting some recognition, I think that it will be possible to sell about 3 acres of vegetables next year and over the next few years I should be able to get up to ~10 acres selling at retail or close to retail prices.

You mention the possibility of doing poultry, beef and vegetables. You may want to start with just one of these and then after a year or two add a second and then a third. There is a lot to learn and if you try too many things at once, you may never be able to spend enough time on any one thing to truly learn it.

For myself, I try one or two new things a year. A few years ago it was raspberries and this year we sold ~$1,000/wk in berries through the season. This year it is strawberries and the hoophouse. Next year it will be greens in the hoophouse and, if I get additional ground, acre plus plantings of items like sweet corn, squash and pumpkins and the use of mechanical cultivation to keep the plantings clean.

If you end up in Ohio, get in touch with OEFFA and the Innovative Farmers of Ohio. When I lived in Cincinnati and was starting to get interested in switching gears from engineering and middle management to organic farming I was able to learn a lot through these groups.

[Dave]

Thanx Andy,
I have experience in the animal part so I am not worried about that really, it's the crops I never got going with. I am very excited to get going but realize it's going to be a tough row to how before I get to where I want to be. Not much to type at the moment, it's early and I don't have enough coffee in my system!!!!

[Dale]

Dave, I am 3 years behind you. I am currently in the AF and plan on farming (some mix of ruminants, poultry, hogs, veggies and fruits) in Indiana when I retire in 2010. I have read several books and intend on developing my overall plan over the next 3-4 yrs so I can position myself to start. I HIGHLY recommend anything by Joel Salatin! "You Can Farm" is a great place to start. I also found the following VERY helpful: "Making Your Small Farm Profitable" by Ron Macher; "Small Farm Today" magazine; and "The Stockman Grass Farmer" magazine. "The Stockman Grass Farmer" also has a very good list of books and resources in it (so do the others, come to think of it). The magazines both have their own websites and the books are available in several locations including right here on NEWFARM in the "store" and Amazon. I also found a business planning guide by the U of MN titled "Building a Sustainable Business: A Guide to Developing a Business Plan for Farms and Rural Businesses". It is free on the web (as a PDF) or you can order a hard copy for $14. As for me, I would love to get 200 or so acres though I plan on starting with 20-40. I would love to talk with you more off-line. Are you on the AF global? If so, let's figure out a way to get in touch without having to give out too much information here.

I'm living proof you take the boy out of the country, but you can 't take the country out of the boy!